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today we're going to visit the small indie company kiemura, kiemura is a squiggle from kotka. they're a family that makes computer games together, so let's go inside and check what's happening. so how was your morning so far? pretty standard we took our daughter to preschool being excited about the new game launch. so you have a big day today?
yeah. what is different from a normal day when you have a game release? well of course you're uh maybe the don't sleep as well of course and you are eager to open up the computer look at the stats and stuff like that so that's always an see if the game is online and everything is working up and all the investors are calling like i remember my
mind like know well we don't have any investor so not yet but maybe they call a bit later so who is this this company who is part of this kiemura? so kiemura this is a small game company from finland we are based in kotka and basically it's me and my wife are making games mainly we are focused on mobile games we have done some pc and apple tv
games as well the company was established like a little over a year ago august 215 we are making games at our home office and so far we released the 3 games. so what's the story with the with the name kiemura?. kiemura, we wanted something like finish word we didn't want to like some
something games like that you know every game company seems to have we wanted something a bit like maybe like a kind of like rovio in a way so it was a finnish word that would be easy to pronounce i don't know if the kiemura is that easy to pronounce it for the english speaking of people but it's also like the logo is is one of our late late
dogs when we had the dog, she had like this curly curly uh tail and kiemura means curly line translated so it kind of also inspired the name of it so how did you get into game development i was a working of a few years ago in a company we had us this summer project so we have the possibility to make a mobile
game there we didn't have any like a actual you know work related projects so we were like giving the green light to make a game so we did its and well it kind of seemed like you know open the doors in the in the company like hey okay you made a game once you make another one and we decided to do that and that's kind of sparked interest in
you know making games of our own so what kind of background do you have to allow you to start developing games i'm a software engineer so i've been you know studying here in kotka you know programming and web development and i graduated in 2004 so after that i've been you know mostly mostly working in that development weeks so i have like
you know engineer programming background so that helps a little bit when you're making games what are the main languages that you know and like to program with? were currently we're using c sharp with unity 3d game engine so that's probably the most used nowadays
i've also you know some java some html of course on php those are only for the web development. do you think knowing those languages have served you in any way to start developing games? of course i mean you know the programming fundamentals are always you know pretty much the same no matter what the language is. so when you learn to program
you basically have to learn like this you know if else statements and you know doing stuff in loops and you know so when you when you start out with developing a new game how how is it how does it come about like where do you start that depends i mean usually we are you
know want to start from like you know how you actually play the game it's like tapping or swiping or tilting or what was the basic controls what you're doing in the game and then it kind of you know goes on from there like okay we're tapping okay what we're tapping what'swhat's the you know the main core mechanic and in the year your
two people in in the team apparently you're doing mostly in charge of the coding? yep yes so yeah i'm i'm you know mostly doing the you know the heavy lifting that you know the programming and the actual like you know making the technical stuff. and your wife goes to the bank and spends the money? eh, piia is a, she takes care of
of the you know the company you know finances stuff like that and actually helps with design with some graphics as well and of course in in general you know helps to come up with the ideas and helps with testing and stuff like that so, do you have a clear set of boundaries and who takes care of that takes care of well well no i mean which is more
company to people so we basically have to do everything by ourselves and it kind of far depends what's the current current you know project the state so if we should be programming or doing art or doing music or sound effects or testing or whatever so we you know wear many hats so you're now releasing your your third game today
yes then you have so you have to mildly or largely successful games in the past yeah so hover crash is the game that is launched today before that we launched piranh.io which is kinda like real-time online multiplayer game you know you can play it on there with browser or mobile devices web version was released june
and mobile in october i thought it was really fun until i got eaten by bigger fish and it isn't fun anymore yeah it's a is basically really you know if you know agar.io or slither.io it's really heavily inspired by those games we just decided to add more are some own ideas and own stuff there i don't know if it's unheard of but it's
you know people are have been really surprised to hear that it's two people making games and they are making online real-time multiplayer game and it's it's pretty surprising the money and then the previous game before that yeah that was the tiltagon we released it actually before we established our company so it was in april 2015 it's a
mobile game which is going to like to base you tilt your device that to kind of all around the different courses yeah it basically help us you know established company the main inspiration was this game called super hexagon which is on mobile and pc it's really tough really hard you basically have to avoid hitting walls and that was like the main
inspiration and we started thinking that ok how could we make something like that but a bit more difficult and so the idea of fighting field controls came into mind and really started prototyping and it seems like a pretty challenging game you know some all the technologies available on a mobile platform from a programming point of view which is which
is the most difficult thing to implement the tapping swiping tilting the controls we are well we're using like i said the unity game engine it makes it really easy you can get the taps and swipes and tilts done really quickly of course it's always about how you polish it and how you fine tune it and it's always that's that's the tricky part until they're
gone since it's a like a field-based game that took quite a lot of work to get it like the feel really good you can start the game in various that you know different you can hold the device upwards or on landscape or whatever and it seems it auto calibrates it's was really challenging to get it like you know okay
this is the when you start the zero position is calibrated and and you can play it like the way you want that was probably the hardest part. so that the process of of taking them taking the game from an idea to an actual product what is the basic platform you your program for? we're using unity on pc you know mostly but we are you know aiming
our mobile games are coming out on android and ios so that's our main core core markets and so basically when you start prototyping you're going to use like you know placeholder graphics and placeholder items like cube since fears and stuff like that to get the get the main court stuff going and then you basically start just adding
more more stuff there and more code and it just you know starts are coming a whole whole game is slowly so going forward from here where did you where do you expect or hope that the gaming industry and specifically the mobile gaming gaming industry ways where is going mobile gaming is a obviously huge at the moment that i think think that in
the future is still is going to grow even more especially in the like the third world countries where you know mobile devices are probably getting like more advanced since the prices are dropping and you're getting more more high-end high specs with lower price points that's one place where there's going to be huge growth of course
china is big and asia in general there's a lot of talk in the game industry at the moment love like vr and they are games like pokemon go and of course all the oculus rift and things like that so i think if the prices are going to drop to you know some you know they actually have to drop really pretty significantly that the you know standard normal
consumer starts in buying those things and after that does, then i think that's going to be a interesting market as well it seems that i'm looking at the the most successful games on the mobile platform you've got you know candy crush you got you know angry birds and and clash of titans and stuff like that are are actually and of course
tiltagon and hover crash and all those got upcoming games seems that the the unifying thing is that there actually pretty simple by idea obviously there's a lot of really heavy mobile games like with a lot of rendering a lot of 3d effects and stuff like that yeah but the most successful one seems
to be the simplest ones of course of the casual market is huge i mean if you're talking about candy crush or angry birds and stuff like that so the you know the reason verbal please why they are so successful is that the core mechanics and core gameplay is really really simple and it's just polished really polished them people have you know
you're playing on mobile devices or you know you're not sitting on your home home couch and you know playing for two or three hours you know straight your gameplay experiences really you're on-the-go you're playing you know one minute here and another there so i don't think that it's also may be a reason why the graphics it is also possible that
the graphics aren't as you know high-end in that case it's not may be needed as well of course the reason that there's a huge amount of fragmentation with the devices so you have to be able to get like a low-end mobile phone and be able to be able to play that you know game as well as you know the latest like iphone so there's like a huge gap between the
low end and high end and that also probably explains why the graphics are maybe not as you know published zone unlike the latest game consoles and how important this optimization for you about graphics and stuff like that like file size does it does it matter those things anymore yeah it does i mean on ios and android
have basically the it's like 100 megabytes i guess the limit that you can download the app on your you-know-what yeah 3g or 4g connection and if it's above that you have to download it on your wi-fi and if it goes above that is of course you know a lot harder for you know people to just go on the app store and download a game since you have to
you got just over this is too big i have to wait for the you know getting back you're going to lose lose a lot of customers exactly exactly level yeah so how do you think about your core audience have you ever thought to who they are and like who you want to serve we don't like have like a specific one i mean we're doing like arcade or casual
games so that's probably our core audience we are you know as a you know small team we just can you know start making a game that's like you know two or three years of making in the making and we just can't financially for example we don't have the resources to do do or start that kind of project we are more focused on creating a smaller
titles so again it's more like a maybe maybe the younger audience is the like the primary primary audience for our games. so you have a very of sorts of places where you copy i mean get inspired to for new games? yeah i mean i've been always a fan like a video games you know also liked loved playing old old like super nintendo's or you
know need to know 64 for example so they have a lot of awesome games and it's easier actually a really great source for inspiration if you're playing like all the titles maybe something like lesser-known once as well some of them you know the game games that are successful nowadays on mobile have something like you know can play market
mechanics kind of copied or inspired from the older one so you think there's any more original ideas for games out there or has everything like we say that all of the songs in the world have basically been recorded already and all the movies that we made have all the game ideas being been made or is there still something what do you think still
something out there i don't think that they have been made i mean for example if you're looking like the vr stuff that's that's definitely something that's a new territory there's gonna be a lot of a lot of inventive and interesting stuff coming out i'm sure there's a total different interface and that means we have allows you to guess i
like like the mobile device was with the tapping swiping and tilting and yeah it's totally new interface of doing so maybe some of the games are getting ported from from old existing ones into vr but i think yeah the vr is maybe a totally new ya think yeah that's definitely so and i mean ar like pokemon go
for instance it has been a huge huge hit and it shows that the games nowadays can be much more than your you know normal like mobile mobile experience maybe with the tapping and stuff like that so i think that maybe people are a bit they maybe should use more of the like phones different features in
you know you have like you like for example tilting or cameras or different sensors and you could maybe there are some things that maybe it should be used more and that would keep more variety for the games as well so you're based here in in kotka which is a quite vibrant area for game development there's a there's a few companies around
here and how how do you how do you feel that the area you are based in how does it serve your business yeah so we have a couple of gaming companies in kotka so they are a bit bigger than us but well kotka is a pretty small town if you think about like globally it's like 50 or 60,000 people so... oh, that's "huge." pretty small
but it's a it's been really nice to see that they are you know and companies have been established here and they haven't liked moved to helsinki or anything like that so that's definitely a plus so we have some like igda, you know local hub here we have a monthly meetings you know game developers from other companies you know
come here and the students from the local school come there as well and you know meet and mingle and you know it exchanged you know ideas and show some games and stuff like that so as a great great way to you know socialize and you know have the you know try to build the you know the community here even in this like a small town
how important do you think that is too to have this networking and support easy is definitely important i mean it's a everything like students they are you know studying studying game development and maybe don't have like a clear you no idea about all the things and or maybe they are you know almost graduating they are looking for a job is great to come
to those monthly meetings and you know meet the you know people from the actual game companies and maybe you know maybe you know get tips or hear the stuff that maybe help them to get a job from those companies so it's definitely important how about the support from playa and igda and these kind of communities yeah they have been really helpful i
mean they are offering like office space here here in court car if you're ready for a look you know want to establish a company that can help looking for office space and other you know needed stuff what you need they offer like or they actually do some you know trips to for example slush or pocket gamer you know events other
gaming events in in finland but as well abroad so they can help help you know covering some of the costs from those trips and they help meet if you're looking like an investor for your game company they can help with that as well so they are you know they have been really helpful you know in support for organ company as
well you know getting some support and some tips and some feedback how to run a business do you have any moral or ethical guidelines for codes that you follow something that you would never do not put into your game i think that it's it's probably like adult material like you know you know six and you know stuff
like that maybe like alcohol that's probably not like an hour you know core audience anyways i mean of course if we in the future for some reason shift to like making adults-only games like that you know grand theft auto or something like that at the moment we're not like that into it we would you know want to keep the games a bit you know more
family-friendly i mean in piranh.io you know eat other fish and do eat people were like floating on the water so but that's like that you know cartoony stuff yeah so it's different now you can let excitement start because now we are starting - okay.. yeah, so tell me a little about your background? how did you end up game developer?
sure, actually i am graduate in building engineering, but actually but during the child-care leave jyri started to make games so i started to help him so that way... so basically you've moved from engineering to develop games? so why? how did that happen like that? yeah, basically after our first child was born we started to make games together here at home. and i started to help out with the graphics
i noticed that jyri was kinda busy because the coding itself takes some time. so that's where it started. i still got a lot to learn from the industry itself was there any help from your engineering background? as an engineer you still have to look blueprints yeah, of course there was. it is easier to visualize 3d objects what do you feel like, what is easy and enjoyable in making games and what are the challenging or hard parts?
maybe the most challenging in the whole thing is that you have to learn something new all the time. and of course, because it is pretty limited because i don't have coding background so i have to focus more on graphics and how you use those developing programs do you sometimes have these communication issues, like you want one thing and jyri is saying that it is impossible or how you can say this yeah, we do have those
many times, like "hey let's do this" "yeah, well it will take this much more time etc" "so maybe we shoud plan something else." so that kind of issues we've been trough do you feel like you have to give up on thoughts or dreams about what you would like to do? maybe because you have more thoughts it doesn't come like you "have" to give up on them, just think a new thought how your children are taking a part in the game making process? mostly they like to test out the games.. and mainly what kind of or what colour the characters could be.
okay, what is your opinion about the home office, how does it work? what are the good things and what challenges there is? well the good things are that when you are at home you can keep the small children also at home so you don't need to put them in daycare. of course there are situations when you maybe should focus more to somethings, so then you have to move those tasks that require focus to late hours when the kids as an example are asleep
is it challenging to keep separated free and work times? like you are sketching hexagons all the time during trip to shop.. actually not really when you are with the kids you do those things and then you try to take that other time to that other planning and sketching if you had a chance to use magic wand how would that make this company and this arrangement look? well of course we would like to grow
like so we had our own space and employees like real office space... that would be really awesome. if you were not developing games for now, what would you do? would you be in building industry? i would think so, in building industry. either as an engineer or i would go study architecture how important thing as a mom is the educational aspect of games? like how much they could be used in education? i think that they could be used more.
more than they're used right now. as during that children learns. learns how to use devices and then there wouldn't be that fear towards them mm, do you have any boundaries for your own children? like how much they can play or watch tv or so? yeah they do have boundaries. yes, they can play and watch tv but not too much they also have to go outside and play there. also they need to be into what they want. was it hard to get started? okay you had an vision. yes we are starting to make games
what were the first steps that you took to get it work or was it more like you had an game before you had an company well actually we applied for the starting money back then and for that we needed to have business plan and all that was all new to us for start did you get any help or support during that time? well we did go to cursors info service and from there we did get the help we needed. well how did cursor help you out? mostly we needed help with the application for starting money.
okay how about then you established a company and you started working how long did it take before money started to transfer to your account? yeah, well it took a while and it is always that challenge especially at start. okay so if you were to guide a new or give a tips to a new young entrepreneur so how challenging was this time? okay you have starting money
you get started and so on, but you should still have somekind of idea or vision yeah, idea or vision and that wouldn't be bad if you already had some money to live with so you wouldn't have to start paying salary at first months and you could get a little further with that. ok time to get serious no just kidding developing games is not only about hard work it's also having a lot of fun inside here we got a wind tunnel and we're gonna go fly
let's go check it out hello how you doing what's your name and where are we i'm very good thank you. my name is joe o'donoghue and we are at sirious sport resort okayyyyy what is this what is going on behind us so it's currently someone is swimming in invisible water invisible water so where are the wind tunnel so basically we have a huge amount of air
coming up underneath and on this area creates like an invisible surface when people are going to fly on and do things like this will make you doing a second so so where's this idea come from and how spread around it does i this is the only place you're feeling right it is the only place in finland this place has been about three years now tunnels are
springing up all over the place a few years back this way about 16 now that's double to about a hundred and twenty-two the technology has been around for a very very long time there's been tunnels are built since the second world war but they almost used for military testing for this sort of purpose more like 1980 what's your customer base
like who were the people that come and try this out and we have all different types all different ages i've here we have an agent five but i know people as young as 18 months have been in tunnel i have taken a ninety six year old lady missing limbs blind death so there's very few things that stop people from going in the tunnel we have three main
customer groups though we have corporate groups companies we have the professionals come down and we have just first time just want to go so you can see right now i'm a little bit and scared and frightened about what's behind us how are you feeling a little bit nervous i have
admits never flown before have you jumped out of an airplane no first time i've ever thought about jumping out of an airplane oh well with the parachute maybe how do you feel right now? are you nervous? yes, i'm really nervous right now have you ever been in same situation? "no, never" have you ever seen dreams or even nightmares from this kind of situtation?
not really, for my sake. i am pretty nervous, can you hold my hand if i am really nervous? you will make it. - okay so we are gonna go in a few minutes and see how it goes i don't know how life will never be the same again after this okay so we're done flying m how do you feel right now pretty good pretty good how would you explain that
feeling when you're in that airstream it's pretty definitely pretty unique your muscles are you know wobbling all over and it's it's really really are undescribable i would say. - could you try to describe that feeling what happened inside? pretty awesome and really liberating in doing doing the test completing a task being relaxed and just following
instructions and you also succeeded in the gaming industry how hard part's not feel well i don't know about succeeding part but arm yeah well we've been lucky to have some dialogues and some success like i guess arm of course it feels awesome to see people playing game and leading positive feedback and positive reviews and even
like app store or google or apple are promoting the game it feels great. - you are not maybe the only finnish game devs but you are still succeeded in a way that you can still earn your paychecks you can sustain 4 headed family or is it a six? how does it feel? it is great that you can sustain yourself with your work. - finland is known for having a very strong community of of
game developers and it is seen around the world at that good games come from finland do you have any idea why that is i think it's well we have demos in was big part of that back in the eighties nokia of course was a big influence in especially for the mobile mobile our game development and those people who have been in the demo scene and when
working working at nokia and other companies have moved on and established on companies which some of them are again companies that's definitely part a part of the whole whole puzzle i would say and then of course we have a you know great great educational system so we have a you know lots of lots of schools which where you can study
nowadays game development as well or programming or art and of course the society in general is safe and supportive for for many of those things besides that in finland is this lovely flying pipe what other things are good in finland? i would say that the nature and finland is really clean and safe. - if you weren't developing
games well would you be doing arm i would probably be working in it sector somewhere are maybe web development or i don't know we've maybe in some ways involved in game development i would say something like that i don't know if it would be a new company or if i would be an employee in some bigger company
i don't know that but i would think as i have a background in programming that would be probably something something related to that. - your performance inside that pipe looked really good i think if you weren't developing games as your day job you would be this kind of pipe trainee? that would be pretty awesome!
did you feel relaxed like so ordinary things were gone for a moment? - yes. so i forgot to ask earlier about developing. well he got clearly the coding and you otherwise have the graphics now as i've been playing your tiltagon then it came to my mind about those levels and also that hover crash... who designs those levels? where does the ideas
for obstacles and other elements come from? those we design together there's one question i've been wanting to ask you know the whole time but i've been waiting for the right moment and i think now is the right moment so in the end who who's the boss who who makes the choices? for the company jyri does and he is the boss
but for things related to the home and how you actually run your life i guess there's only one answer for that. - we'll just we'll just keep it up keep it at that so obviously when you when he create games and when you're in this industry you know hopefully most of the time things go as planned but sometimes they
don't do you have any stories or any any situations where things didn't go as planned or any humorous anecdotes about some gaming industry yeah well some sort of stories i think most of them are probably related to the first game since it was like a learning learning experience in many ways arm we managed in the end to get a draft of a
publishing deal from one foreign game publisher we had the papers everything set up and ready to go and still we decided to self-publish the game and well turns out you know releasing games on your own is really hard and we managed to you know get just something like 5,000 or 6,000 downloads in the end so in you know it if that's
something that i would you know had the possibility to change that would probably be something that's maybe we should have you know written within our names at the publishing agreement but yeah lessons learned i guess that's it so for those persons who might be watching this show and thinks about okey, hey i would like to start developing games
so, max 3 things that they could use as tips or you would like to say to them? should them or shouldn't? of course they should. but they got to prepare for that you got to work. and well, of course there needs to be some luck with but always you should try. - so anything else except having having a good time and finding something that you're passionate about
and doing a lot of work yeah i think those those are taking you a long way arm i think in the end it's probably that no matter what you're doing you should definitely try to finish it and release it in some way it doesn't help if you are you know making creating games and prototypes and you're not you know completing and releasing
them out there it's a you know game development is a you know a pretty big process and there's a lot more than just making the game you have to you know it covers like marketing and what it's like to pop actually published a game on the store so there's like a lot of four simple graphical assets that you have to make and things that you have to prepare
before you can launch so if you do that more often i think it definitely increases your chances to success in the game to industry do you think that people armed tend to try to make it too good or not holding out all the details because they don't want to spoil their reputation by putting something out that is not finished
yeah i think it's probably something that you know people wanted to be like a perfect game perfect game and them well there's basically not such thing and i think it's more wise if you're just starting just make smaller projects finished them and you know release them yes you may get some you know negative feedback but
that's also part of like the process you have to be able to receive and you know our comprehend and think about all the you know the reasons why people left you that you know the negative feedback and that's also are growing experience as well and so you can take all those things and make you know a better game next time and if you do this more often
for example on your free time or you know if you're studying then you could do like a you know when you're studying you could do games on your free time as well it's definitely more safe than you know just hey we're gonna you know establish a company and you know start making games and we have no experience whatsoever so yeah i agree one of my
favorite people favorite talkers is gary vaynerchuk and he talks about the three most important things to succeed is work work and work doesn't it number one two and three principles of success and he also like to say that it's all about putting stuff out there just being productive and putting stuff out there self not to be holding on too
long just putting it out there getting a completion and then going going back again so it's been a pleasure talking to you hanging out with you all day i wish you the best of luck then i'll be going home and playing your i hate hovercraft our hover crash sorry because it's difficult but maybe it's just me you don't know it yet but i'm
going to go home and practice so this is it for today hope to see you next time tune in this is dense this is christopher
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